Hello, I have a question. Maybe you know the answer to it. I wonder what it means to have an aspect between Chiron and Lilith. (My aspect is a semi-square) I can not find any information about this one on the internet. I don´t know if it matters but my Chiron is in Scorpio and my Lilith in Libra. I hope you can help me out x
Since you don’t include birth data, I can’t see for myself the situation here–I have to take your word for it that there’s an aspect between these two, that you state are in adjoining signs–and that brings me to this: there are only a handful of relatively significant possible aspects with bodies in adjacent signs: the semi-sextile (30 degrees apart), the novile (40 degrees apart), and the semi-square (45 degrees apart, which you state is your aspect), though I suppose if one body is at the very beginning of Libra, and the other at the very end of Scorpio, we could also count this as a sextile, or with one at the end of Libra and the other at the beginning of Scorpio, a conjunction. That’s the spectrum of possibilities, and you specify a semi-square, which needs to be close to be in effect. I keep very tight orbs for minor aspects, no more than one degree, and even that I’m not always comfortable with, as it can end up stretching things too much, implying relationships between bodies that don’t really exist–and by ‘don’t exist’ I mean aren’t truly interacting and affecting each other’s expression.
Then there is the matter of me not publicly using Lilith yet. I do use Black Moon Lilith, which is a point, rather than a body, and I’m assuming you’re asking about the asteroid itself. There’s quite a bit of overlap in meaning; read about the asteroid Lilith here.
So, we’re looking at an aspect between the indicator of the most primal wound, as well as your most unique skill (Chiron) and Lilith, a youthful and assertive impulse that gives a confident, rebellious voice to anima energies, and who takes full charge of and responsibility for her sexual expression–and when thwarted can be more than a little vengeful. Chiron in Scorpio says the wound is deep, possibly buried from conscious examination, and deals with the Truth of something; there’s also the potential for hurt involving sex or the kind of intimacy that requires vulnerability and exchange to and with another individual. We can’t really tell what this wound involves, but it runs deep and is likely potent, affecting in some form the individual expression of sexuality, personal power, or both.
Lilith in Libra suggests the attention is on partnership, and matters of fairness. Now beyond this I can only guess, without seeing the whole chart: a semi-square suggests, first and foremost, tension between the two bodies, and the placements imply that the Self in relation to others is on a kind of fulcrum, trying to achieve balance between fulfillment of urges to relate intimately to others, and avoiding the potential for hurt or betrayal. It may be that you have been deeply wounded and can’t be in relationship fully, with the task now to work through that, or it could be that you can’t seem to be in partnership without the other person wounding you in some way (and that would imply your choices in partners are about making manifest this aspect, a kind of ‘See? I was right about relationships and how hurtful they are all along!’). There are so many possibilities, including that you have a mandate to find the Truth within sexual relationships (not just yours, but for others, as well) and be a defender of women who have been injured, perhaps as a lawyer, counselor, or political advocate or activist. Lilith can be a superhero, if we channel her correctly, so there are as many positive potentials here as negative ones.
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I’ve had a pair of comments/ questions from the lovely Nina; I’ll put the bodies of both messages below, then my own commentary.
Hi! My first Saturn return is coming up at the end of this year. I have this feeling that someone who I had a brief, but intense karmic relationship with ten years ago will be a part of my life again during this time. Our past encounter ultimately ended badly and I don’t feel like I’ve ever really had closure, nor has my attraction to this person ceased, despite being in a six year relationship with a different person (which recently ended).
My question is not “is this person my soul mate” or “will I end up with this person?” (I read the guidelines for submitting questions!) What I’m wondering is, what is your take on this? My intuition is telling me that we will date during this time and that it would bring us each closure and immense healing. I have a bit of astrology knowledge and I think we have some aspects that support this. But, I haven’t been able to find anything online about the idea of love or relationships specifically during a Saturn return. I am so curious for the take of an objective, experienced astrologer on this!
And then this:
Hi, it’s Nina, I submitted a question a few days ago involving love/relationship during a Saturn return.
As I have been thinking my question over, wondering if you’ll find the topic interesting, wondering if I explained myself well enough, I realized that I may have glossed over a relevant piece of information in pursuit of being concise.
So, I explained how I had a tumultuous “relationship” (we were never officially dating, but fought intensely and hooked up) with person A. This took place during our freshman year of college, specifically October 2007 through April 2008. It ended when he simultaneously stopped talking to me and started dating a close friend of mine the day after we had sex for the first time.
Fast forward about four years and I start my first real relationship with person B, who hadbecome my best friend after meeting at the same college freshman year. He is also a best friend of person A. This is the relationship I was in for nearly six years. Person B had been secretly harboring feelings for me since the first time we met. our relationship was healthy for about a year and then turned sour for the remainder. We’ve recently given ourselves space and there is a significant part of me that hopes he will be the person I end up with, once we have each had time to grow as individuals. (That is to say, I hold out hope that we may start a new relationship after our Saturn return.)
We also make music together as our profession, so we are still very much a part of each others’ life. (In fact, we still live together! But, we are going to change this this summer or fall.)
So, the question I asked you in the first place was what are your thoughts on a relationship during a Saturn return. I want to date person A during my Saturn return, and then start a new and hopefully permanent relationship with Person B. It occurred to me that this love triangle was almost certainly important context for my question.
(It maybe be relevant to mention that I have no intent to hurt Person B by dating Person A. It was a mutual decision for Person B and I to break up, but it was he who was not sure if he was attracted to/loved me anymore. I don’t know if Person B would necessarily know about my potential relationship with Person A. But, I wanted to make sure to explicitly state that this is not any sort of revenge or malicious intent. I never got over Person A and I feel overwhelming drawn to him. (And, yes–I noticed out Black Moon Lilith/Venus conjunction!))
You seem to be something of an expert in dissecting relationships via astrology. And, I think love triangles might be something of an intriguing topic to people? I do apologize for submitting my question in such a fragmented way.
Since material presented on this blog is centered in analysis that can be useful to others, I’ll be addressing your first issue concerning the implications of dating during the Saturn Return, as that’s a good subject that I’ve never seen addressed myself. Then I’ll talk briefly about the more personal issues for you.
The Saturn Return, for those who are not aware of this, occurs at roughly (dependent on the retro-direct cycle at the time of birth) 29.5 years, when the planet returns to its position at birth. Leading up to the first Return we have three bursts of major, hard contact between transiting and natal Saturn, a square at approximately 7 years old (considered ‘The Age of Reason’, when the individual first sees their responsibility for their own behavior and becomes aware of potential consequences), an opposition at 14 (another turning point, one where the first big steps away from childhood are taken), and at 21 (a complete coming-of-age that leaves the individual solely responsible for her or his own life and actions). Each of these hard contacts of transiting to natal Saturn typically brings more responsibility, and in a certain way, more freedom, as the individual is asked to take on more, to follow the rules, and thereby gain autonomy and reach a new stage of maturity.
But, by the time the Return arrives, we’ve been out in the world for awhile. We feel we’ve got something of a handle on things, that we understand how the world works, and that we’ve found at least some avenues of expression and ways of creating security. As Saturn nears its natal position, though, we begin to Self-assess, to consider what it is that we’ve actually built. This period of consideration occurs even in those who have non-material goals, or an outlook that isn’t trained on establishing authority, joining an established hierarchy, or meeting professional benchmarks. It’s about seeing how far you’ve come, and judging that progress by your own particular standards–and for some, especially those who see themselves as rootless, as craving the unconventional experience, it may be the revelation that they have goals at all, ones they’ve never admitted even to themselves.
If you’ve been telling yourself you want one thing out of life, but actually want another, you’ll realize it now. Stability may become more important to you, as may a sense of ‘moving up’ or ‘moving on’, especially if there are personal milestones you’ve always assumed you’d meet, such as getting married, having children, or attaining a particular professional status. We judge our own life accomplishments at the Return for what they may mean in a larger sense; what have we contributed to society, and what do we want to contribute in the future? What do we want our roles to be? How do we want to make our mark, be remembered, have an impact?
So, we can see that this is an appropriately Self-focused period, one where we are taking our own measure, assessing just how, where, and how well we fit into the social order–and that means that dating at this time won’t really be about the other person, but about fulfilling our own needs. That sounds harsh, and it’s not like we can’t fall in love at this time; it’s just that we are much more likely to spend our time seeking partners or others who will help us fulfill our own aims. The more conscious we are of those aims, of course, the more deliberate our decisions, and the more likely we are to fulfill our Saturnian needs for status, security, and order (and we all have these, know it or not).
Dating during this period can take on a certain quality of mission, of seriousness of purpose–and that almost always translates into establishing a more permanent situation either professionally or personally, through marriage or partnership of some kind, even if that commitment is to oneself, initiating a kind of marriage to an achievement or goal. Now, be aware, all this usually happens without excessive conscious intent; we don’t realize, necessarily, that we’re assessing our lives, judging our choices up to now (though we may become overwhelmingly aware of our own discontent), but we are, and that means that dating takes on an almost predatory tone: we are looking for a mate, or we are looking to meet certain life goals such as those involving reproduction and the parental experience–and if we’re not, we’re usually bent on throwing our energy into some other area of accomplishment–and so not dating at all.
I hope that sets the Saturn Return stage for dating–it’s not to be taken lightly, in fact, you can’t take it lightly, even when you believe you can, as there’s a part of you that will persistently wonder where it’s all leading. So now, Nina, you must be wondering what I’ll say about your situation?
Dear Nina, You may be very disappointed with what I have to say here, and I apologize for that. I want to offer you the same feedback I would offer any client who provided me with the details you’ve supplied–and please forgive me if I’ve misunderstood what you’ve conveyed, but you are speaking as if you have the ultimate say in having a relationship with either of these men–but you yourself say that each has broken things off, implying the break wasn’t in your hands.
I also want to ask you this: if you were Person B, how would you feel if your prospective partner wanted to date someone else (your best friend!) but then had plans to ‘settle down’ with you after? I know you have no intention of hurting either man–that’s absolutely not in question–but I do think you’re feeling a kind of Saturn pressure, and that it may be overpowering your respect for the feelings of these men, both of whom have created distance that they may or may not want to continue.
So I would counsel that you get clear both on what you actually want, and how much of creating that is actually within your power (sometimes, all you can do is know what you want, and offer yourself). As I’m sure you’re aware, your Saturn Return hasn’t actually kicked in yet–doesn’t even begin to enter orb until this November–so you may be anticipating something before you really know how it feels or will manifest. Your current focus on Saturn, though, may be a manifestation of your Solar Arc Sun within orb of conjoining your natal Saturn–in essence creating all the same considerations that the Saturn Return brings. Add to that the SA Sun is also conjoined natal Uranus, ruler of the Whole Sign 12th, and you may find the unconscious is at the steering wheel, no matter how much you try to be conscious of your choices. The effect may be you are driven, in any number of ways (some of which you will feel are Karmic or fated–such is the influence of the 12th), with the actual results only visible roughly two years down the road. With so much on your own plate, the astrology of interaction with either of these men is a moot point, at least until you sort out your own wants and intentions definitively, and taking into account the wants and wishes of these men, as well. And though you didn’t ask, with transiting Saturn in your 10th, it’s no wonder you’re focused on your status–but rather than in relationship, the place to put your effort might be the career, as this could be a high point period, if approached with maximum dedication.
I hope this question fairs better than your recently published questions just as I hope others will be interested in the answer. Let me start with the general broad questions and then give you my specifics in case you want them.
Okay, Tora, that sounds good. The easiest way to do this might be for me to just put my answers within your letter. Though this is primarily a relationship blog, I think our relationship with ourselves is the primary one–unless that’s good, how can we be with someone else?
What advice do you have for those who have “messed up” pivotal transits? I don’t mean simply missing opportunities that transits can give but more like making the “wrong” choice. Like if someone fails to handle Saturn well during their first Return, the next 28 years aren’t necessarily gonna suck the whole time, right? Neptune oppositions, Uranus oppositions, Progressed Sun changing signs, etc.
First, I just don’t believe there’s any such thing as the ‘wrong’ choice. Are we capable of making bad choices? Of course, we can make the worst choices possible, but that doesn’t make them wrong, that makes them our choice! I think you’re missing the point: having choice is having freedom–it’s up to the individual to decide, and even if we make a choice we know is not the best, it’s still our choice–that is, it came from us, from within, from our unique viewpoint. And no matter how disastrous or poorly realized the consequences, those were, most definitely, the result of our thinking, impulses, beliefs, and so an expression of who we are.
And in what ways, astrologically speaking, can they work on these wrong choices and failed lessons? Will other transits and progressions simply provide similar lessons? Or is it down to the next step of the failed transit, ie failed Saturn Return helped by the next Saturn Square or the next Saturn-Natal planet aspect?
What I have found is that individuals typically deal with three or four major ‘themes’ throughout life, and these take ever-new (and sometimes ever-repeating) forms, and with attention and effort, these will evolve and open the way to new understanding, and so new ways of being (and of course, that means new ways of making decisions, of choosing). We can’t work on things, as you say, “astrologically speaking”–we work on our lives, not our transits, and you are definitely misunderstanding astrology if you see the transit (or natal placement, or progression, and so on) as ‘coming first’, that is, as dictating when and how we are able to address things.
For the specifics, I was born (data removed to maintain privacy).
I’ve definitely failed to heed my Saturn Return and the call of Pluto, Neptune, and Uranus. When my mother passed away on May 7, 2011 my moon had a Uranus square, Neptune trine, and Pluto opposition. Now Neptune is at 11 degree Pisces which is a big degree in my chart; it’s squaring my Sun/AC and Uranus while trining Saturn/Mars and sextiling Jupiter.
I’ll try to summarize where I am and have been in the last few years. I’ve been depressed for over 8 years, long before my mother passed. I failed to empty the hoarder-type apartment we shared until February 2015, well after Saturn left its natal Scorpio.
I didn’t work from summer 2013 to summer 2015 and I currently have a low-paying retail job I hate; it barely makes enough to make a dent in my $3000 credit card/student debt. I’ve been living with family for two years and that won’t change in the foreseeable future.
I went to college for 10 years and I’m still short of a Bachelor’s degree by 19 units. I can’t see going back to school any time soon either; I failed at least one class every other semester in the last 4 years because of my issues.
I don’t even know what I want for a career anymore either. I was a psychology major with the intention of becoming a Marriage and Family Therapist but in August 2012 I started to have dreams of becoming a fantasy writer. 4 years later and I haven’t written anything, I haven’t tried anything on that front.
That’s a lot of information isn’t it? But you can see how multiple areas of my life are messed up because of my procrastination, inaction, fear. I’ve even been meaning to ask you this since February! And now I’m finally doing it after the sun has moved into my 12th house and I failed to do any New Moon wishing as it moved through Aries and my 11th house.
I threw my hands up and said screw it, I’m going back to California the first week of May instead of waiting until July when my dad and stepmom sell their house. I don’t even know if my car will make it back or what’s the situation with my California registration since they never sent my stickers. My cat has no place to live in Cali so I might have to give her away. So Saturday night was the first time I’ve contemplated suicide. Not for that night but rather the steps I need to take, the storage unit to go through, which things I want particular people to have, the best available option I have to do it, etc. I cried off and on for 2 days thinking about it. Now it’s trying not to think about it and considering antidepressants.
Astrology has been one way for me to understand myself, another psychological tool at my disposal. But I don’t have the experience with transits and secondary progressions that I do with a natal chart (or at least my natal chart). So any thoughts you can give on the general questions, how to “fix” past transits or change the direction of a bad path, would be very much appreciated.
What I see here are a lot of statements, declarations of the state of the life, which tells me you know where you are. What I don’t see are any intentions to change the state of things. As anyone would, you want them to change, but are remarkably passive in the way you are approaching that change. I think you may have the misconception that you must already have an end-point in mind before you take your first step, but that’s not so–in fact, to be truly open to the Universe, to the flow of life and to those things that can assist you, you must be willing to take a first step and then listen, rather than stepping right in to the next move. You are in the perfect position right now to take that first step in a direction you deem positive, and without an end point in mind, you are then free to respond to what comes.
In the past it doesn’t sound like you’ve made wrong choices, it sounds like you have made first choices and then refused to make a second one that might make the first one work. I do think you may need a therapist or counselor, and possibly anti-depressants, as the combination of talk and meds can be very effective in helping people like you (you are not alone!) become ‘un-stuck’ from the unproductive pattern that has been pursued so far. I strongly encourage this, because you have everything else: intelligence, energy, creativity, eloquence, that can create a wonderful future for you–but first you must learn to deal with the present.
Don’t despair–it seems to me you need to learn something very basic which is holding you back: you need to learn how to effectively address life. This is not as uncommon as you think, so you were quite correct in believing others may benefit from your letter. And believe me, you have put a lot of energy into preventing your life from working in any coherent way, though that’s never what you intended. You’ll need to honestly answer the question, ‘What have my ‘bad’ choices allowed me to do, that I wouldn’t have dared do otherwise?’ Within the answer to that lies a whole lot about why you have made the choices you have, and acknowledging that there are reasons you have created what you have is important, in fact it’s the only way to begin to turn it around, because those choices gave you something you needed–and your job is to find out how to provide that to yourself in a form that will also bring you personal peace and a reasonable feeling of security.
As to the astrology involved, it makes me think of a recent commercial that you may have seen. Two much older women are in the living room of one; she has covered one wall with photos and notes, and is using social media terms in talking about them (posting and sharing, for instance). Her visitor objects, saying she doesn’t understand, and the woman says, ‘I unfriend you,’ and the other woman stands up and says, ‘That’s not how this works, that’s not how any of this works’. It seems this is similar to your understanding of astrology: you have much of the mechanics, and the lingo, down, but you are misunderstanding the essence of it: without acknowledging that we are the arbiters of and creators of our own Fate, all the study of transits and progressions in the world is useless. Your characterization of having made ‘wrong’ choices is the heart of it; as I explained, if you don’t understand there are no wrong choices (but there are bad ones), then you will continue to believe that a ‘wrong’ choice negates the effects of a transit, meaning you have ‘missed’ what it could offer–and that is just plain wrong in itself. Even study of the natal chart is limited in its application until we realize that it is descriptive, not determinative–and that means that though it may help us choose most effectively, the choices are still ours alone to make.
So, I won’t be addressing the astrology involved (I did mention on the question submission page that’s a possibility), because honestly, I don’t think that will help you; in fact, I think it is a distraction from what you really need now: someone to help you sort it out, along with the understanding that you are the only one who can change things (which is a concept I don’t think you’ve entirely realized, yet), and that you don’t have to wait for any particular transit (nor are you condemned to negative results after ‘missing’ one) for you to make the most of things.
I wish you the very best, Tora. I truly hope you’re not too disappointed with my answer, but from my viewpoint this is the best information I can offer. Experience tells me this is what you need; I could be wrong. My sense is that you have a great deal to offer the world, and that you can build a very satisfying life, if you’re willing. Much good luck, jd
I read your Juno article and found it to be very telling with a current prospect. The interesting thing is that both of our Venuses are conjuncting each others Junos. I was delighted in the interpretation for the man’s point of view, however, I was wondering what kind of perspective you might have on this interesting dynamic? A basic overview would be fabulous. I don’t have her specific birth time, but I know from what contacts her planets make with mine are favourable. I haven’t gotten as far as to ask her what time she was born, but I was hoping you could shed some light on this situation for me (maybe before I ask?).
I’ve got to say, I really enjoyed receiving such a cheerful note–it seems you have a great attitude–what girl wouldn’t like that? (Not sure what Juno article he’s referring to, but it could be the series here). But, you’ve not given me any birth data, and the problem with that concerning Juno is that, if the two of you are close in age, the contact to Venus in each chart might not mean much at all. That is, people nearly the same age will often share a lot of contacts–but those contacts tell us very little about the interaction, because they’re so alike to begin with; it’s in the natal contrasts and true harmonies (that is, contacts that are unique cross-chart) that we find the relationship itself. So, with no birth data there’s not much specific to your situation that I can safely say (and I have only your word for it that all the other contacts are favorable–no offense, but that doesn’t tell me anything either, simply because soft aspects like trines and sextiles can be detrimental under some conditions, just as hard ones can be very positive).
Though some people like to label Juno ‘The Marriage Asteroid’, it rarely indicates that kind of union at all; it’s more often an indicator of, cross-chart, a sense of partnership. We tend to expect cooperation from the other person when something important in their chart touches our Juno. We may assume a sort of yoked-togetherness that the other person may or may not also feel (depending on what’s contacted). We can also feel like a victim of this person, should he or she not respect us and our position; this reflects the goddess Juno’s decision to remain united with the philandering Zeus in order to retain her position on Olympus and her status as Queen of the Gods. And yes, all those things can be part of a sense of one’s marriage–though they’re certainly not the only things.
What I can say is that cross-chart aspects between Juno and Venus can be quite nice. In soft or direct (conjoined) contact, if Juno belongs to the man, then he likely regards the female’s ideal of herself as excellent mate material–I say ‘likely’ as a single aspect alone rarely gives us the whole story–and if the Juno is hers and the Venus his, she may feel very strong and capable in his company, ‘approved of’, in a sense, because she fits his ideal of what a female should be, at least in terms of how she chooses her empowerment and the status she aims for. More than that I can’t really venture. Readers, let this be a reminder: when you submit a question, please read and follow the instructions–we’re all guaranteed to get a lot more out of it that way.
Thank you, Steve, and much good luck with your lady!
I love to answer questions from my readers, but it’s interesting that all the questions I’ve gotten lately have generally failed to give me what I need to give a well-grounded reply to the query. There seems to have been a headlong hurry to ask a question without considering that I ask for complete birth data (with month spelled out) not for my health but so I can do my job! That said, I’m going to wade in here and hand out a few crumbs of advice and astrological opinion; this is the first of several to come over the next week or so:
hi, i have 3 questions. i wish you could tell me what those mean:
i have my eros conjunct my MC in pisces. i have my north node conjunct vertex same degree in scorpio (5th house) i have sun in taurus in 12th house and mercury in gemini 12th house ( what are my hidden talent)?
Hi Chris (I cheated and looked at the name on your comment, since you dashed in and out so quickly you didn’t sign your letter!),
First, I tell people over and over that I’m not crazy about removing a single aspect from its environment in the chart and commenting, simply because we need a total context in order to truly understand anything–and I’m even more reluctant when someone gives me a list of aspects with no birth data, as that means I can’t even determine for myself whether I think they are indeed conjunct, opposed, and so on. You also do not state which House method you use; I use Whole Sign but am practiced in Placidus as well–and anyone who knows much about Houses will tell you that placements can differ between these two, so that what you see as, say, the 5th House I may read in a Whole Sign chart as the 6th. So, you give me virtually nothing to work with that will guarantee my remarks will actually apply to the placements in your chart–so please, don’t take them that way, as they’re only the most general of statements.
A conjunction of Eros and the Midheaven in any sign suggests that the public image, reputation, or career accomplishments may be ripe for projection by others; that is, they may ‘know’ you (possibly only at a distance) and impose their own ideas of eroticism, desirability, or ‘right conduct’ on you (this latter as a judgment, if they disapprove of sexual energy shown openly)–and this is unrelated to your actual demeanor or activity. It’s more a kind of animal magnetism perceived by others who know you through the career or public reputation, a ‘receiving’ of the erotic energy of others, as in, you do something in the career or public venue (or even just exist!) in a way that encourages others to see you in an erotic light. It could even be a statement of an intense and satisfying passion you have for your career, of being driven in the profession. Now, a few words about Eros energy: it doesn’t come from outside of us, emitted by another person (or even an object) despite the fact that it feels that way to the person having the erotic feeling. It’s instead a projection of erotic feeling on another; it’s a kind of choice to see that person or thing as having a sexually attractive quality. When we carry this energy on the Midheaven, our erotic nature (those things we find attractive and stimulating) may be visible to all–and is very likely to permeate your public role, even if the role is not an overtly sexual one. In Pisces you may have the ability to convey an image, especially professionally, that may have little to do with your core identity.
I won’t even touch the second question, because the Vertex is determined by accurate birth data, and I don’t know if you have that, and can’t inspect it for myself. A North Node conjunct a Vertex makes a statement along the lines of, ‘A Fated Future’–but honestly, either everyone has a fated future or no one does. Who’s to say how much is predetermined? Certainly, we exercise our Free Will all the time.
This last question suggests you’ve used a House system similar to Placidus, as it allows for more than one sign in a House. Again, though, I would read these as being in two different Houses, so really can’t comment on it, other than to say that bodies posited in the 12th should not necessarily be read as ‘hidden talents’, though they might be under the right chart circumstances. They are more likely to be energies we aren’t directly conscious of–and that means they may come out, especially through the matters of the House(s) they rule, in some uncontrolled and poorly realized forms, until they become consciously channeled, claimed as your own, and used in positive forms.
Chris, thanks for writing, and good luck with your astrology studies–