Relationships and the Saturn Return

Charles W. Hawthorne – ‘Young Man and Woman’ 1914 {{PD}}

I’ve had a pair of comments/ questions from the lovely Nina; I’ll put the bodies of both messages below, then my own commentary.

Hi! My first Saturn return is coming up at the end of this year. I have this feeling that someone who I had a brief, but intense karmic relationship with ten years ago will be a part of my life again during this time. Our past encounter ultimately ended badly and I don’t feel like I’ve ever really had closure, nor has my attraction to this person ceased, despite being in a six year relationship with a different person (which recently ended).

My question is not “is this person my soul mate” or “will I end up with this person?” (I read the guidelines for submitting questions!) What I’m wondering is, what is your take on this? My intuition is telling me that we will date during this time and that it would bring us each closure and immense healing. I have a bit of astrology knowledge and I think we have some aspects that support this. But, I haven’t been able to find anything online about the idea of love or relationships specifically during a Saturn return. I am so curious for the take of an objective, experienced astrologer on this!

And then this:

Hi, it’s Nina, I submitted a question a few days ago involving love/relationship during a Saturn return.

As I have been thinking my question over, wondering if you’ll find the topic interesting, wondering if I explained myself well enough, I realized that I may have glossed over a relevant piece of information in pursuit of being concise.

So, I explained how I had a tumultuous “relationship” (we were never officially dating, but fought intensely and hooked up) with person A. This took place during our freshman year of college, specifically October 2007 through April 2008. It ended when he simultaneously stopped talking to me and started dating a close friend of mine the day after we had sex for the first time.

Fast forward about four years and I start my first real relationship with person B, who had become my best friend after meeting at the same college freshman year. He is also a best friend of person A. This is the relationship I was in for nearly six years. Person B had been secretly harboring feelings for me since the first time we met. our relationship was healthy for about a year and then turned sour for the remainder. We’ve recently given ourselves space and there is a significant part of me that hopes he will be the person I end up with, once we have each had time to grow as individuals. (That is to say, I hold out hope that we may start a new relationship after our Saturn return.)

We also make music together as our profession, so we are still very much a part of each others’ life. (In fact, we still live together! But, we are going to change this this summer or fall.)

So, the question I asked you in the first place was what are your thoughts on a relationship during a Saturn return. I want to date person A during my Saturn return, and then start a new and hopefully permanent relationship with Person B. It occurred to me that this love triangle was almost certainly important context for my question.

(It maybe be relevant to mention that I have no intent to hurt Person B by dating Person A. It was a mutual decision for Person B and I to break up, but it was he who was not sure if he was attracted to/loved me anymore. I don’t know if Person B would necessarily know about my potential relationship with Person A. But, I wanted to make sure to explicitly state that this is not any sort of revenge or malicious intent. I never got over Person A and I feel overwhelming drawn to him. (And, yes–I noticed out Black Moon Lilith/Venus conjunction!))

You seem to be something of an expert in dissecting relationships via astrology. And, I think love triangles might be something of an intriguing topic to people? I do apologize for submitting my question in such a fragmented way.

Hi Nina,

Since material presented on this blog is centered in analysis that can be useful to others, I’ll be addressing your first issue concerning the implications of dating during the Saturn Return, as that’s a good subject that I’ve never seen addressed myself. Then I’ll talk briefly about the more personal issues for you.

The Saturn Return, for those who are not aware of this, occurs at roughly (dependent on the retro-direct cycle at the time of birth) 29.5 years, when the planet returns to its position at birth. Leading up to the first Return we have three bursts of major, hard contact between transiting and natal Saturn, a square at approximately 7 years old (considered ‘The Age of Reason’, when the individual first sees their responsibility for their own behavior and becomes aware of potential consequences), an opposition at 14 (another turning point, one where the first big steps away from childhood are taken), and at 21 (a complete coming-of-age that leaves the individual solely responsible for her or his own life and actions). Each of these hard contacts of transiting to natal Saturn typically brings more responsibility, and in a certain way, more freedom, as the individual is asked to take on more, to follow the rules, and thereby gain autonomy and reach a new stage of maturity.

But, by the time the Return arrives, we’ve been out in the world for awhile. We feel we’ve got something of a handle on things, that we understand how the world works, and that we’ve found at least some avenues of expression and ways of creating security. As Saturn nears its natal position, though, we begin to Self-assess, to consider what it is that we’ve actually built. This period of consideration occurs even in those who have non-material goals, or an outlook that isn’t trained on establishing authority, joining an established hierarchy, or meeting professional benchmarks. It’s about seeing how far you’ve come, and judging that progress by your own particular standards–and for some, especially those who see themselves as rootless, as craving the unconventional experience, it may be the revelation that they have goals at all, ones they’ve never admitted even to themselves.

If you’ve been telling yourself you want one thing out of life, but actually want another, you’ll realize it now. Stability may become more important to you, as may a sense of ‘moving up’ or ‘moving on’, especially if there are personal milestones you’ve always assumed you’d meet, such as getting married, having children, or attaining a particular professional status. We judge our own life accomplishments at the Return for what they may mean in a larger sense; what have we contributed to society, and what do we want to contribute in the future? What do we want our roles to be? How do we want to make our mark, be remembered, have an impact?

So, we can see that this is an appropriately Self-focused period, one where we are taking our own measure, assessing just how, where, and how well we fit into the social order–and that means that dating at this time won’t really be about the other person, but about fulfilling our own needs. That sounds harsh, and it’s not like we can’t fall in love at this time; it’s just that we are much more likely to spend our time seeking partners or others who will help us fulfill our own aims. The more conscious we are of those aims, of course, the more deliberate our decisions, and the more likely we are to fulfill our Saturnian needs for status, security, and order (and we all have these, know it or not).

Dating during this period can take on a certain quality of mission, of seriousness of purpose–and that almost always translates into establishing a more permanent situation either professionally or personally, through marriage or partnership of some kind, even if that commitment is to oneself, initiating a kind of marriage to an achievement or goal. Now, be aware, all this usually happens without excessive conscious intent; we don’t realize, necessarily, that we’re assessing our lives, judging our choices up to now (though we may become overwhelmingly aware of our own discontent), but we are, and that means that dating takes on an almost predatory tone: we are looking for a mate, or we are looking to meet certain life goals such as those involving reproduction and the parental experience–and if we’re not, we’re usually bent on throwing our energy into some other area of accomplishment–and so not dating at all.

I hope that sets the Saturn Return stage for dating–it’s not to be taken lightly, in fact, you can’t take it lightly, even when you believe you can, as there’s a part of you that will persistently wonder where it’s all leading. So now, Nina, you must be wondering what I’ll say about your situation?

Dear Nina, You may be very disappointed with what I have to say here, and I apologize for that. I want to offer you the same feedback I would offer any client who provided me with the details you’ve supplied–and please forgive me if I’ve misunderstood what you’ve conveyed, but you are speaking as if you have the ultimate say in having a relationship with either of these men–but you yourself say that each has broken things off, implying the break wasn’t in your hands.

I also want to ask you this: if you were Person B, how would you feel if your prospective partner wanted to date someone else (your best friend!) but then had plans to ‘settle down’ with you after? I know you have no intention of hurting either man–that’s absolutely not in question–but I do think you’re feeling a kind of Saturn pressure, and that it may be overpowering your respect for the feelings of these men, both of whom have created distance that they may or may not want to continue.

So I would counsel that you get clear both on what you actually want, and how much of creating that is actually within your power (sometimes, all you can do is know what you want, and offer yourself). As I’m sure you’re aware, your Saturn Return hasn’t actually kicked in yet–doesn’t even begin to enter orb until this November–so you may be anticipating something before you really know how it feels or will manifest. Your current focus on Saturn, though, may be a manifestation of your Solar Arc Sun within orb of conjoining your natal Saturn–in essence creating all the same considerations that the Saturn Return brings. Add to that the SA Sun is also conjoined natal Uranus, ruler of the Whole Sign 12th, and you may find the unconscious is at the steering wheel, no matter how much you try to be conscious of your choices. The effect may be you are driven, in any number of ways (some of which you will feel are Karmic or fated–such is the influence of the 12th), with the actual results only visible roughly two years down the road. With so much on your own plate, the astrology of interaction with either of these men is a moot point, at least until you sort out your own wants and intentions definitively, and taking into account the wants and wishes of these men, as well. And though you didn’t ask, with transiting Saturn in your 10th, it’s no wonder you’re focused on your status–but rather than in relationship, the place to put your effort might be the career, as this could be a high point period, if approached with maximum dedication.

Wishing you all the best,

jd

See more on personal dedication of energy, and relationships, here–

And more on relationship interaction is available here–

You might like this ebook on Saturn, too–(not by me, but by the lovely Wisestars)

 

 

 

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Variations on a Theme of Self-Sabotage, Act Two

I am very interested in knowing the right time to meet a life partner (man) for the rest of my life. Afraid to have another one for fear it hurts worse when it ends. Cannot have the wind knocked out of my sails again. Two years ago, betrayed by x-boyfriend who went with my x-friend.  D

Dear D,

Who isn’t interested in knowing this? But it is Self-sabotaging to refuse to participate in relationship unless you get a guarantee that this person won’t hurt you–and that only happens if you’re not involved emotionally, so how rewarding or interesting could that relationship be? Not to mention he won’t find it terribly compelling to date someone who literally does not care. You may think it’s more reasonable to request the right time to meet the perfect life partner, than to request to directly know who he is and when he’s arriving–but the fact is that again, you’re asking for a guarantee, as if everything is pre-determined and I just have to look it up–and it’s not.

Take care or, confused, he could ride right on by
Take care or, confused, he could ride right on by

It almost sounds like you are hoping to know precisely the right time to lower the emotional drawbridge and let prince charming cross into your heart. I don’t blame you one bit–who wants to be hurt if they don’t need to be? But that is exactly the point: if you don’t stay open to relationship, you won’t have the heart opening, bending, and molding experiences that will make you the exact right person for the life partner when he does come along–he will instead see only a castle with a lovely damsel in it and an impassable moat–and he will ride right on by.

Damsels must remain emotionally accessible, in order to find love.
Damsels must remain emotionally accessible, in order to find love.

So please, D, consider that life really is, to use a tired old cliche that is absolutely correct, a journey, and know that the answer isn’t closing up emotional shop until a specified period of time–what if I gave you a possible time to meet an excellent partner, and some boob muscled in there ahead of the ‘right’ guy and you opened up to him, thinking it was the right guy–what a mess! Then you’d think astrology was a crock (or perhaps that I’m incompetent), or that maybe there was no one for you, and all the while the right one was there, waving from afar, and your skewed timing, your insistence on trying to control the experience, meant the two of you would never meet?

No, if you want love, you have to continue to love, it’s that simple. The real challenge is not to mistake attraction, lust, mating fever, an image, desperation, or hormones for love–we all do, and that’s what leads to 90% of heartbreak. So, concentrate on recognizing, seeing, and participating in real love all you can–and it will come to you, just exactly when it should.

And an aside to D and all who would look for information from an astrologer: we need date, time, and place–without ALL of these, we cannot draw an accurate chart–and no, time zones cannot be used in place of location. jd

When He’s In Love: How to Tell, How to React Pt. 3 Sag to Pisces

Sagittarius–Men born under the sign of the bachelor are anything but that; their naturally expansive nature and roving eye signals a lively, engaged spirit, not an unfaithful or singular one. In fact, the Sag man treats his woman almost as if she’s his new religion, demonstrating a deep and abiding commitment by taking his love’s beliefs very seriously, and by, in one way or another, bringing the world to her. He may ask you to travel with him, take a class together, or attend worship with him; he may want to educate you himself, and he’s often a storehouse of knowledge driven by his innate interest in the world and the way things work. Sag brings to the relationship a central idea of enthusiastic companionship, along with the expansive Jupiterian energy that can at first bring a big high (“The whole world’s our playground!”) but which can quickly become draining for those more home-oriented or less energetic; as well, when the game is always ‘on,’ as it is with Sag, the sheer bigness of everything about the relationship can become an enormous weight for the woman who likes a little time off, or prefers her experiences in more modest portions.

How to react–The Sagittarius man offers Big Love, alright–and the interaction can quickly become overwhelming, as the demands for time and energy add up. Too, he loves to share what he knows, and the guy with an answer for everything, no matter how cheerfully the information is delivered, can even get on a saint’s nerves. He may not fathom that you don’t have the continual, immense appetite for life that he has (at least for the gigantic line-up of gigantic experiences he offers), and he can easily mistake your need for down time with a rejection of him. One Sag-heavy guy I know (unaware of the perfect Sagittarius symbolism he was using) put it this way: “It’s like I go through the day shooting a bunch of arrows, and hey, if I hit something, great, I go with it!” This can be an exhausting approach for those who like to concentrate their energy and choose their target. The best response to Sag’s enthusiasm and desire to put ‘it ‘ out there is definitely to allow this man free rein–because the first thing that will make him bolt is the idea that he ‘can’t’–and at the same time set firm parameters for what you will and will not accept (for instance, you will consider spontaneous adventures, but not if they’re proposed at 2 AM). The thing you must offer your Sag man is knowledge of who you are–his spirit is ultimately one of accomodation, and he will, once he knows, begin to train his arrows to hit precisely what you want.

Capricorn–lets you know he loves you by being very very serious in interaction–sometimes so serious that you barely hear a word from him! Cappy’s admiration can devolve into him hovering nearby, just watching you, not wanting to intrude on the event that is you. This may or may not be accompanied by gifts of real property, business advice, stocks, or useful items, like hammers, lumber, and brooms. Often, though, this is the early behavior that is a prelude to Capricorn offering you stability, status, rules, and a legally binding contract. When he proposes (whatever he proposes) he means it, so even if your Cap gent has a lighthearted surface manner, take what he says as being absolutely sincere.

How to react–The Capricorn man wants, no, needs, for you to take him seriously; if you entertain even his least appealing suggestions with properly solemn consideration, he’ll be satisfied. Don’t laugh at him, ever, and find out what he cares about and treat it with respect–it’s the one thing he’ll always offer you, and it will be the one thing he’ll require from you–though typically he’d also like a firm, lifetime commitment and clear rules concerning personal conduct, if he can get them. Treat him with the gravity and care he wants, and you’ll find him evetually (once his need to be taken seriously is realized) able to exercise spontaneity and lighten up, which can be a gift for you both.

Aquarius–likes to live in his head, and if he falls for you, may try to live in yours, as well. He may show his interest by engaging you intellectually, perhaps strutting his academic creds or trying to impress you with his expertise as a group leader or with his place in the avant garde. He’s likely to make a point of expressing his independence as much as possible, and you may notice he must feel unique, no matter what; he’ll be the anarchist in a group of Republicans, the atheist in church, the nudist in Alaska. Not only can this be socially awkward for you as a couple, it can be highly irritating, and the irony of Aquarius’ need to rebel in some form in every circumstance is something he’s unlikely to recognize. He won’t see that compulsive indulgence in this in the relationship is the equivalent of essentially treating you like you are either an enemy or an authority figure, and the adolescent insistence on trumpeting his individuality and having his uniqueness recognized (and often as not this takes the form of the kind of slavish conformity that believes itself to be unique, found in fashions of all kinds) is enough to drive a permanent wedge in the most charged and exciting (also Uranian characteristics) of interactions.

How to react–The good news is Aquarius can always be reasoned with; the bad news is you may have to reason with your Aquarian guy, and he’s a master at mental manipulation and intellectual sleight-of-hand, and this can feel like you’re talking to an idea Houdini who slips in and out of facts like they’re trick handcuffs. If you love him, let him know how unique he is in your eyes; show him that radical behavior isn’t necessary to make him stand out in a crowd. And never let him pull the ‘superior intellect’ number on you–he’ll respect you for standing up to him, and for being able to meet him on an equal mental footing.

Pisces–the man heavy in Pisces/ Neptune energy will let you know he cares by doing the most creative and nurturing thing he can think of, likely using water in some way and giving you a sense of escape from the everyday. The Pisces man wants to commune with you, to have no boundaries, to unite in an ideal world–and this could be great, if healthy relationships didn’t require good boundaries and if harsh reality didn’t intrude on fantasy. He loves to get away from it all, and he wants to take you with him–and this can cause a real clash when you must be back at work by 8 AM. And if he wants to share a chemical or virtual escape, that comes with its own pitfalls, not to mention the fact that if you’re wrapped up in unreality, you’re not really spending time together with your loved one at all.

How to react–Pisces just wants togetherness–so maybe if you point out that being conscious and face-to-face is as together as two people can be, he just might agree. Don’t hesitate to share his fantasy, escape, or getaway, but make it clear that you expect to re-enter the real world with him, intact and with all your brain cells. Most Pisces just need to be soothed; and knowing that you are available and willing to indulge in a total merge once in a while ought to make him more than happy–no consciousness altering substances needed!

When He’s In Love: How to Tell, How to React Pt. 2 Leo to Scorpio

Leo–you can tell the Leo guy’s in love when he pulls you into his spotlight. Suddenly helping you shine (and the two of you shining together) is what it’s all about, and depending on your temperament, this may be a dream come true, a nightmare, or something in between. The exceptionally generous Leonine spirit can almost literally be like receiving a gift of life energy, but the attention and scrutiny while in that spotlight can be intense, whether you thrive under those circumstances or not. Leo equates attention with love, but for some with whom he tries to share, this can eventually end up feeling like you’re a bug struggling under the glare of a cruel child’s magnifying glass.

How to react–If you love the bright lights your Leo shines on you, then all’s well, but if you begin at some point to spend an inordinate amount of time in the bathroom (because it’s the only place you can be alone and unwatched), then something’s got to give. So much depends on your own tolerance for and desire for attention that it’s difficult to give even a barely adequate one-size-fits-all answer; the closest I can come is to say that what Leo really wants is to admire and be admired–so I guess the relationship becomes a proving ground testing whether each of you naturally has what the other can admire, find pride-by-association in, and respect.

Virgo–the Virgo man signals he’s into you by telling you, one way or another, that you’re perfect. This sounds wonderful, and often is, for a time, until you do something he doesn’t interpret as perfection; then you hear about just exactly how you could improve yourself–and that’s definitely a mood killer. Virgo is relentlessly focused on the details, on the critique meant to create a better end result, a better product, a better harvest, so he doesn’t see why you wouldn’t want to hear his assessment. It never occurs to him that what he perceives as flawed won’t necessarily seem in need of repair to you, and this is the heart of the problem: with all that attention to detail, the Virgo guy is still totally obtuse when it comes to big picture objectivity, as well as the fact that others naturally have another point of view.

How to react–Though bristling is your likely first reaction to the Self-improvement list your sweet Virgo presents to you, it might make sense to put it all into context. This is a man whose attraction to you allowed him to see you as the perfect woman, at least for a while, and now all he’s doing is trying to maintain his own belief in your perfection. Virgo is programmed to inspect, nitpick, assess, classify, and sift through data looking for what is out of order (or what might go wrong). Likely as not, Virgo’s suggestions to you are a signal flag he’s throwing up, in the hope that you’ll stop, turn your full attention to him, and reassure him that the woman he fell in love with hasn’t left the building. What he really wants, though he may couch it in perfectionistic or critical terms, is to be assured that the vision of love he carries is real, and that you are still unquestionably interested in him. Virgo is Earth, and suprisingly consistent in its need for predictability in life–favor him with reassurance that he’s still the one, add a modicum of interest in the minutiae of his existence (because it’s all in the details, for him), and he’ll relax and feel loved (and if you’ve got a lot of Sag or a prominent Jupiter, you might want to lovingly share with him how his perception of detail fits in the Big Picture–he’ll be delighted to be shown another use for his abilities).

Libra–ah, the romance we expect from a Libra! and we get it, no question; it’s a sweet togetherness that gives even the mundane tasks of life a euphoric kick. He’s always thinking of ‘us,’ and everything comes with a rose and a romantic pink glow. Problems come in two ways: if we are a more cut-to-the-chase kind of person, who thinks romance has a specific time and place, we may find each interaction being staged like the cover of a romance novel a little too much; or, we may be just fine with the emphasis on continual romance, but may chafe when our connection goes from the gentle holding of hands to being joined at the hip with our human ball-and-chain SO.

How to react–Libra clearly means well, but few of us can live with our gaze firmly fixed on some Victorian idea of the niceties of relationship without needing to look away now and again. Libra generally believes that the relentlessly romantic approach is what a woman wants and needs; you must understand that the Libra guy, even when he’s ultra-modern, has an unreal expectation of what a love relationship is. He may believe it will fulfill him, and that can put a big burden on you to fill in the missing pieces and even to play a role, the requirements of which you might not be privy to. When expectations and the need for everything to look romantic and pretty gets to be too much, you might want to remind yourself that this man lives for partnership, and he truly wants to shoulder half the load (and in fact he’ll carry more than his share, out of love and dedication)–for him, it’s an expression of his love for you. Then, no matter your feeling about his romantic approach, you might want to share some activity, something important to you that you can do together, or even something where you can ‘assign’ him a part–the vital point is the sharing, the inclusion of the Libra as you describe your goal, your plan, your interest, and ask him to participate. What he  wants is to be on your ‘team’–for him, that’s really all the romance he needs.

Scorpio–if his intense gaze doesn’t give away his interest, the way he figuratively drags you to a cave of one kind or another will certainly get the message across. Scorpio’s likely to be quiet, even calculating, in his approach; a conspiratorial aura to your interaction is a strong sign he’s into you. The stealth factor can play a big part in the relationship itself, as well; where Libra will trumpet partnership to the skies, Scorpio plays it all very close to the vest, so that the fact he sees the two of you as a couple might take you by surprise. This can come across like a mixed message, or can make you feel like he’s hiding your relationship, as if he’s ashamed or otherwise unwilling to be open about it. This can make for major crises of confidence and can lead to very bad feelings; other places in relationship with a Scorpio man that can, like the little girl with the curl, be very very good or very very bad, are the sex life, and in the keeping of secrets–the latter may be a compulsively manifested stumbling block on the road to real intimacy.

How to react–Confusion about your Scorpio guy’s real feelings and intentions is the most likely problem to arise. Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to join Scorpio in his cave: allow him his need for secrecy (for it’s really a mannerism, more than a withholding, with this man); trust him, and you’ll never have to question his ardor or his loyalty–question him endlessly, and he feels the need to crawl into that cave and pull the opening in behind him. If you can accept that you won’t be privy to his every thought, can accept his intensity as genuine and his need for privacy as a true need (and so to be respected), then you can go the distance and enjoy a truly passionate relationship with this (often) mysterious man.

When He’s In Love: How to Tell, How to React Pt. 1

In relationship we’re always looking to determine the level of interest of our partner, whether we really think about it or not: we watch his reactions, search his eyes for a spark, wait for the smile or the touch that is beyond what he offers to anyone else. We want to feel special; that’s only natural, and right. Often, though, he just isn’t so easy to read; it seems that men have an extreme interest in obscuring, or even hiding completely, any signs of emotional involvement: he’ll cup your ass in public but be mortified if you want to hold hands around his friends, and the last thing he wants anyone else to hear is him saying, “I love you” into the phone. So, in honor of all those men who fear emotional vulnerability more than they fear public speaking or death (the two biggest fears of the general populace), we take a look at how he might be signaling you his love, in a manly semaphore that sometimes only he can understand. Read both his Sun sign and the sign in which the ruler of his Sun is placed (for example, for a Libra Sun you’d also read the sign in which you find his Venus). If the messages of late have been strangely mixed, or the contact is new and mostly (at this point) sexual, read his Mars sign, as well–this gives big clues as to how he sees himself, and might help you decipher some of his more perplexing behavior.

Error signal flags
Error signal flags

Aries–you may first realize he’s in love when he starts to boss you around. The Aries man likes to think of himself as in charge–and once he sees you as part of his life, he’ll just see it as natural that he should command you, too. He may do a lot for you, going so far as to take things right out of your hands and finishing the task for you. Annoying as this can be, you’ve got to see it for what it is, his message for you: if I love you, I do for you.

How to react–depending on temperament, you may want to explode with indignation and a speech about equality and respect, sulk, or cave to his aggressive role in your affairs–but the best response is a grateful one, even when it seems he’s way over into your personal space. ‘Thank you’ to the Aries man is like gold; he will, quite literally, even, move heaven and earth to earn your gratitude and appreciation. Praise is what he lives for, so be generous with it–then later you can gently suggest that he might want to let you open your own birthday gift, next time.

Taurus–he will bring you things, small, soothing things, things that appeal to the senses–there’s a loving appreciation of the way you feel, a concern for your material comfort, that’s the giveaway that the Bull is in love. Not one for words (unless his Mercury is in Gemini), the Taurus man will let the homemade soup, soft throw, smelly candles, hot chocolate, heating pad, perfume, ice pack, bunch of thyme, exotic cheese, mohair socks, organic brown eggs, one-of-a-kind jewelry, handthrown bowl, lady-size gardening implements, cake, basil, new house, or the bag of potting soil do the talking. Here the message is: If I love you, I’ll shower you with the things I find comforting.

How to react–if you are enchanted with a never ending supply of fragrant, earthy, mostly practical delights, all will be well–but if you find yourself at some point thinking, ‘Enough already with the ceramics classes and the composting!’ then you might long to tell him of your McNuggets craving, your desire to use disposable diapers, or your heretical enjoyment of all things plastic–and we just know that won’t go over well–in fact, he may take that as rejection of who he is. With the Taurus man, what he wants most is to share his material world, so if you love him, that’s what you need to do: return the favor. Nothing impresses this man like receiving the same sensory treats and attention to his comfort that he uses to express his love–and it may be the only ‘language’ he truly comprehends, so think of each small gift or caring gesture as a statement of affection, because that’s precisely how he’ll be seeing it.

Gemini–this guy comes in two flavors, the chatterer and the silent type, so you may not at first notice the change in the way he interacts with you–but you’ll know he’s in love when he wants to be alone, just the two of you, to talk and share ideas, especially things he’s kept quiet about til now. He also may enjoy showing you off socially, or ‘teaming up’ socially, and could insist on being included in whatever he sees as your network, while expecting you to be part of his. A select few will show their adoration by becoming completely tongue-tied, but even in those susceptible that won’t last long. He may insist on knowing your every thought, and monitoring your social calendar–and few women can take that for long without some sort of confrontation.

How to react— the onslaught of ‘thought energy’ is eventually bound to feel intrusive, and having to account for all your activities and contacts can make you feel he doesn’t trust you. In reality, he doesn’t recognize communication boundaries with those he loves, and truly doesn’t understand your objections: to him the flow of info is love.  Recognize that this isn’t going to change, and then resolve not to horde ideas or facts from your beau. Many of us are taught that one important way to draw boundaries (and retain power within a situation) is to withhold information–and if we’re going to be with Gemini, we need to let go of that, and realize that no one controls us just because they know where we’ll be at 4:30 next Thursday.

Cancer–a Cancer guy is a sensitive guy–and before he’s in love, his attention remains on his own feelings, but once he’s fallen for you, you become part of that feeling world. He becomes attuned, not to you, but to his own feeling state that has grown to include you, and this means that, though he’s totally close and loving in interation with you, he expects you to share his emotional reactions, perceptions, and conclusions to the letter–and this can be awkward if you’re not into co-dependence. The exceptional gentleness and compassion shown by the Cancer man can be very persuasive–you’ll know you’re loved, but inevitably there’ll come a point when you’ll wonder just how much ‘you’ there really is in your relationship.

How to react–Love with a Cancer man can be a total experience, like you’re enveloped in a perpetual wave of emotion–and if you have a strong streak of independence (unaspected Sun, strong Saturn or Uranus, lots of Aquarius, Capricorn, Aries, Scorpio, or Sagittarius) the constantly enmeshed feeling of the interaction can become overwhelming–where do you end and I begin? you may ask, and a Cancer man doesn’t necessarily want to answer, as part of the illusion of love for him is that there seem to be no boundaries between you. There’s also the possibility that the Cancer man so owns his Moon (as it is ruler of his Sun/ Soul) that there is no room for your Moon, and that means that, in a very real way, your emotional state may be unreal to this man. The best approach to possible confusion and even fusion of energies is to respond with real empathy and compassion to your man’s emotional state, but to make it very clear that there are some things a woman must carry for herself, including her own Moon energies. Gently show him that your emotions differ from his, own the nurturing qualities and functions you’re most aligned with, and keep the woman/Moon part of you prominent in the relationship–any guy as sensitive as the typical Cancer is will recognize that there are Moon energies especially attuned to the female, and will admire you for claiming them as yours.

More to come!

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The Clinginess Quiz, or Which Glenne Close Are You?

As promised oh-so-long ago when I posted ‘Are You Too Clingy?’ https://askjulie.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/are-you-too-clingy/ here is a little tongue-in-cheek quiz to help you determine where you fall on the clinginess meter–and who better to measure yourself against than the many incarnations of Glenne Close, whose life and work runs the gamut on illustrating reaction in relationship?

Give yourself 5 points for A answers, 4 for B, 3 for C, 2 for D, and 1 for E. More points isn’t necessarily better, nor is a low score especially good, so don’t stress either way. This is, after all, totally without scientific merit–but it may give you a new angle on your own inclinations.

1. You’re at a party and spot your SO across the room talking with an attractive person, you . . .

A) panic inside 

B) begin to plot the downfall of the recipient of your lover’s attention 

C) think nothing of it 

D) grit your teeth 

E) go over and introduce yourself

2. You get anxious if you haven’t heard from your SO . . .

A) daily, at least, plus lots of playful texts 

B) whenever you want 

C) whenever your SO wants 

D) it doesn’t matter–your SO has no obligation to call you 

E) you don’t know–you’re not really keeping track

3. When you see lovers in a movie, in the park, out to dinner, your first thought is . . .

A) I want that passion for myself!

B) How can I ruin my rival and claim the lover for myself?

C) They really shouldn’t touch in public

D) No time for courtin’–there’s work to be done

E) A life of sexual celibacy looks more attractive all the time

4. Your favorite food is . . .

A) meat!

B) a dish served cold

C) a sandwich made with processed American cheez, chopped, pressed ham, mayo, on white bread, with a glass of whole milk

D) anything made with corn

E) something sensible, like a pot roast

With the astrology placements, give points for all that apply.

5. Your Saturn is in . . .

A) Aries or Libra

B) Sagittarius or Gemini

C) Capricorn

D) Taurus

E) Scorpio

No points for any other placement

6. Your Pluto is in . . .

A) aspect to Venus, ruled by Venus, or in the 8th

B) aspect to Mercury or ruled by it

C) a cadent House–3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th

D) aspect to Saturn

E) Leo or Scorpio

7. Your Venus is in . . .

A) Taurus or Aries

B) Scorpio or Leo

C) Cancer or Aquarius

D) Capricorn, Sagittarius, or Libra

E) Gemini or Virgo

No points for Pisces

8. During a break-up, how do you feel inside?

A) Like I must do anything possible to get him back.

B) Like I want him back, but I feel compelled to play games, and keep him at arm’s length.

C) I look on the sunny side of things–there’s a reason for everything.

D) I embrace hard work.

E) I’ve never really had a break-up.

The Results

34-40 points or a majority of A answers: Like Glenne Close in ‘Fatal Attraction,’ you can let your emotions get the best of you, and drive you to do things way outside your better judgment. Your battle cry, like the character’s, is “I will not be ignored!” Intensity in relationship is the name of the game here–you may think almost obssessively about your partner and the availability of him or her to you. The problem may be that you don’t recognize as clearly as you should boundaries and the rights of others, and you allow little room for down time in a relationship–you may need to learn that every moment can’t burn incandescent with passion without the danger of scarring the ones you love.

27-34 or a majority of B answers: You see love as a bit of a game, and generally aggress in order to protect yourself. Like Close’s Marquise in ‘Dangerous Liasions,’ however, you may have trouble extricating yourself from the complicated tease-and-release program in which you’re involved–and the desire to be in control, and yet to appear above it all, makes for tension, eventual, inevitable disappointment, and perhaps even turns lovers into enemies. Take a step back, and respect that love isn’t something to be ashamed of, but something that makes no demands on anyone.

20-27 or a majority of C answers: Much like the persona Glenne wore early in her life as she traveled the U.S. with a scrubbed, toothsome, sunshine-y performance group called ‘Up With People,’ you may be almost psychotically defended against negativity and gloom. You’re certainly not going to let a little thing like a failed relationship get in the way of duty, country, and keeping your virginity intact (at least, a psychological virginity that focuses on wholesome thought and deed–to the exclusion of acknowledging the whole spectrum of human behavior). Buried feelings are a real danger, and vulnerability to what you don’t acknowledge is a distinct possibility. Loosen up.  

14-20 or mostly D answers: Like the title character in ‘Sarah, Plain and Tall,’ you have a pioneer spirit that doesn’t see the point in whining about anything, much less about fussing over a relationship. Your nose to the grindstone, you see relationships as partnerships, and you expect to have to work at it; you doubt you are allotted  many tender moments in this life. Sadly, your stoic and non-judgmental mentality may cause a less hardy relationship to die on the vine. Take a few moments to nurture and be nurtured; in your push forward you may fail to enjoy what you have, and could walk (or work!) right past what might really give you pleasure.

Fewer than 14 points or mostly E answers: Like Glenne’s sexually celibate nurse in ‘The World According to Garp,’ you may be way too focused on the unsavory elements of human nature, and it could be spoiling your enjoyment of life. You like to cut to the chase, and relationships seem just too encumbered by subterfuge and hypocrisy for you. Consider that there’s something quite pleasant about a little back and forth in the name of love, and that not everybody’s operating according to their basest nature. Cut your fellow Beings some slack, and re-join the human race–we miss you.

Love Hurts

Hi Julie, I met this guy D, last year March, when we met, there was an instant connection, we clicked and everything I said I wanted from a relationship, he said he wanted the same things as well.We dated for seven months and it’s been five months and I can’t get over him. This was my first BDSM type relationship, we’re both switches. We dated for seven months, during that time we broke up with each other four times. We would talk everyday, and at first we got along fine, until he told me there was someone else he was talking to, and he feels a stronger connection with me, that’s why he told me about her. This person was married and lived in Australia. So there were many obstacles. I told him I needed a break after he told me that and I didn’t talk to him for a while. When we started talking again, he told he had stopped talking to her and he was happy I decided to talk to him again. I really liked him and I think I fell for him from our first conversation. We broke up after only talking for one month and a half. His reason, we had no common ground, our conversation seemed strained and he’s Atheist and I’m Christian. To me this was complete bs, except for the communication, after he told me about the other person, I had put my guard up, so maybe that’s why, but everything else was really weird to me. This happened two days after he told me he wanted to take things to the next level.

We didn’t talk for a month, and if I saw him I would ignore him. Then one night he messaged me and told me he missed me, that same night he did something that upset me even more though, while we were talking he left me, for like an hour to talk with some other woman. I left, and wrote him an email, telling him that I no longer belonged to him so he could no longer control me, and maybe we should just not talk to each other ever again.. Maybe he was trying to make me jealous, I don’t know.. We spoke after that and tried being friends, but our connection is extremely strong and we ended up dating again. He said that he was scared, that’s why he ended things with me. Everything was going good and then he started acting weird again, detaching and being distant, and I asked him what was wrong and he said he needed space, so I backed off, again we broke up, because he said our communication feels strained and he doesn’t think we have anything in common, when to me we had a lot of things in common, yes the communication was strained because I felt like I wasn’t smart enough or was worried I would offend him in someway and I feared losing him, We did have debates and a lot of good conversations and I did try to open up to him, but it didn’t seem like he was making the same effort.

We got back together, we always do. This time after a very intense argument, and he opened up to me and told me exactly what he felt and I was shocked because I had no idea he cared that much, he told me that his freedom means a lot and that he felt like it was being threatened, he also told me I scared him, because to him I represented commitment. He did show me a lot of different sides of him that most people never get to see and he always would say that he wants to know me on every level and that he felt safe with me. I was worth trying for. He didn’t feel like he was worthy of me, he felt like he was wasting my time and I told him all the time he wasn’t. We talked about everything and yes there were times when our communication was off and it seemed like we would just be sexual instead. water-heart

That’s not what we wanted, we didn’t want it to be just about sex, but it seemed like that was what it was becoming or maybe that’s all it was. I broke up with him this time, because I started doubting that he cared at all about me, it seemed like he wouldn’t even try to open up and I felt emotionally drained. We talked and then we decided to try at it, because to him I was worth it, and he was worth it to me too, I felt like he was my soul mate and I love with every fiber of my being. This time he started saying he wanted no commitment, at all. He would always talk about his freedom, and I know commitment scared him, but I thought that after being together and going through the things we did, it would make us stronger, but instead it broke us apart. He cheated on me, then he told me that it was only him and I for now, as he could not promise monogamy, that we didn’t have enough to commit. Then he said he doesn’t want to be together, he changed his mind. All of this in one conversation. That was it, he told me that we had nothing and we never would. and apologized for using me. We didn’t talk for almost three months. We’ve been broken up now for five months and I can’t seem to get over him, we are trying to be friends, we started talking again late December. I love him, completely. but he will probably never love me at all. He’s dating someone else that gives him all the freedom he wants, because she’s poly. I am happy for him, not jealous or anything. I just wish I understood why I can’t get over him and how he went from wanting to commit when we first met, to fearing commitment and then not wanting commitment at all. Also how he can be so possessive and say he doesn’t believe in sharing his mate, to being with someone that sleeps with other people.

There are thingsI left out, some personal stuff. Sorry for the long message.

k

Dear lil’ k,

First, lil’ k (I hope you don’t mind me calling you that!) no need to apologize for a long message, or for leaving things out–one is needed, because relationships feel complex, and the other’s okay because everyone needs their privacy.

In comparing your charts, I see the components for attraction, and the way your sexual tastes are very compatible–and that can be so attractive, can’t it? There are some clashing, crashing elemental combinations here: your Juno conj his Uranus (uniquely empowering for you, threatening to him), your Jupiter conj his Ceres (the king of Mt Olympus meets Mother Nature–and note you carry the masculine side of the equation, which is so in other connections and explains some of the problem), your Pallas conj his Vesta (the sexual warriors in the flesh!) and your Ceres conj his ASC (you as Mother Nature, or even ‘Mom,’ controls how he meets the world–a big turn-off for him).

There are also some hurtful connections and mixed messages, as well, and these act as compelling contacts, which can be either positive or negative, and often both at once for you two: your Chiron conj his MC (do you hurt or heal his rep, from his point of view?) Your Saturn/ Juno conj his Uranus (you are strong, and it may feel to him like you’re asking him to repress his most individual attributes, and to give up his freedom) your Pluto/ South Node conj his Saturn (he may want to hold back your power at all costs) your Sun/ Venus conj his Pallas (your dazzle challenges his skills) These and other interactions all together suggest that you are perceived by him as intensely strong, aggressive/ assertive, and powerful on an elemental level–and though he has a taste for it, he really can’t handle it for long. His admission that he feels his freedom threatened is his fight-or-flight response to you–and it’s an underlying perception that he’ll never let go of.

It doesn’t help that with his Sun falling in your 7th, and your Sun falling in his 5th, you two definitely see each other as mate material; but, Saturn contact, necessary for relationship longevity and the will to stick it out through problems, isn’t really there, and as you say yourself, communication here is the pits, and actually brings out the worst in both of you–this back and forth is junior high stuff, not worthy of either of you–lack of contact between the personal energies is what makes this so hard.

There are a couple of clinchers here, that are probably both key to why this doesn’t ultimately work, and to why you are having trouble letting him go: your Neptune conjuncts his Moon–for you this means you may be filling in the emotional blanks for him, unable to clearly see how he feels, and he absolutely can’t get a grip on how he feels about you, which is certainly clear from all the mixed messages–and do you really want to be with someone who changes what he says he feels from moment to moment? There’s no future in that, at least not one where you can count on your partner. There’s also your Moon square his Arian Juno, and trine his Mars; your emotional reality challenges him in a way he finds very tough to handle. You report he says, at various points, that he feels both safe and scared in his relationship to you, and that he wants no commitment–and the chart interaction clearly says that he’ll never nail down his feelings, nor will he stick with things over the long-haul.

Now a challenge for you, k: you say you love him completely, at a Soul-deep level, but is your ideal guy one who changes up his emotional stance toward you like most people change underwear (I mean daily!) and is your ideal guy one who cheats on you, telling you there isn’t enough between you to make a commitment? I hope not–you need to think better of yourself, because you deserve someone as vibrant, fiercely sexual, exciting, and interesting as you are.

Julie

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